tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8331917990627226586.post1315293083864821438..comments2023-08-29T04:35:15.852-07:00Comments on The Trent Philosophy Blog: Anti-immigrationism is RacismNeil Turnbullhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07757980706607642699noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8331917990627226586.post-82464207210736824642010-04-29T14:54:03.304-07:002010-04-29T14:54:03.304-07:00Thanks for this thread Fred (My suitcase is at the...Thanks for this thread Fred (My suitcase is at the door too Patrick!). Anti-immigrationism doesn't necessarily have to be racist, however I can see where you're coming to this connection.<br /> <br />As you guys know, I am an immigrant too, and not an EU citizen, and I had to escape from Greek islands and Turkey because I was literally about to collapse, for those places drove me to psychological breakdown, severe mental illness. There's simply nothing there for me, no friends, no jobs, and a family that I have a long-lasting struggle; not to mention that a nationalistic hate, and a non-aesthetic, wearisome lifestyle that I felt in everyday of my life.<br /><br />Now because I do masters here, I can be qualified for highly skilled worker visa according to point based immigration, but the point is, I am lucky that I can afford my degree (even though I don't fully enjoy it). I am really grateful to be here. Nevertheless, in Eastern Europe and other parts of the world, the circumstances are much more grim, and I can't blame those people coming to UK. And just like me, most of them are coming here due to psychological reasons. <br /><br />In fact it all comes down to this dirty political game; who gives the right to divide the planet into maps? The God, the so-called holy books which lack of holistic views? Those maps are fictional, in our heads, in our ideals, and because of these sorts of "bubbles", humanity has long closed its eyes to sanity.UPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00824431215148774101noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8331917990627226586.post-43202838078134920912010-04-29T11:25:27.795-07:002010-04-29T11:25:27.795-07:00My suitcase is at the door! Thanks for posting thi...My suitcase is at the door! Thanks for posting this Fred. It's good to see some stuff up here on the election, and this question is well worth confronting. I have to agree with Neil's point though, as I think it is important. Anti-immigration is not necessarily racism, even as you so eleoquently put it, the rhetoric which surrounds it so often is. What are the reasons for immigration: war, famine, poverty, unemployment and soon climate change. Such migration is not a choice but a necessity. The world would improve if people did not have to face these decisions. Alleviating the material conditions which impose these decisions would allow people not to have be forced to leave their homes. So I think in this sense, one can certainly be anti-immigration and anti-racist. (Although putting it in such stark terms might not be helpful.) One can see immigration as the symptom of wider economic problems and challenge it on that level rather than on the level of race. Global problems are precisely global, and not restricted, at lest wholly, to particular questions of identity, ethnicity, religion or race. Alleviating such conditions would also mean that the transfer of labour between countries would be more fluid, driven not out of economic desparation but economic need. A tall order I know!Patrick O'Connorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11214527565440373019noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8331917990627226586.post-69035994060369652752010-04-29T09:56:03.454-07:002010-04-29T09:56:03.454-07:00ok, i may be exaggerating. its more for effect tha...ok, i may be exaggerating. its more for effect than anything else. and my point is directed more against people who use flawed arguments about the 'productive' value of immigrants. I suppose one argument in defense of national 'belonging' might be through virtue of historicity. I was born in aparticular geographical, political and cultural place; I have strived with those born into the same place and we are one through that striving. hmmm... I dont know. it is a tricky subject. it just angers me that some people obviously hide bigotry behind 'rational' and 'pragmatic' arguments.fred, dux hominumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06310017562311163045noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8331917990627226586.post-73580351936916743622010-04-29T09:24:38.745-07:002010-04-29T09:24:38.745-07:00The point isn't about the historical facts of ...The point isn't about the historical facts of the situation Fred, but the principle...<br /><br />In certain cases it is possible to take a principled position against immigration and not be racist. These two terms are really quite separate and it is a mistake to conflate them as you seem to be doing!<br /><br />Neil TurnbullNeil Turnbullhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07757980706607642699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8331917990627226586.post-5450656441003176902010-04-29T08:32:08.591-07:002010-04-29T08:32:08.591-07:00Also, I think that we need to evaluate exactly wha...Also, I think that we need to evaluate exactly what right we have to claim land and 'ours' and to deny others access to that land. Perhaps in an old testament world, where God gives land to certain peoples, we would have the justification to be exclusive. i myself, am not a subscriber to the notion of 'promised land' and think that we will find many problems in trying to classify 'britishness' and analyse the right that possessors of this quality have to claim land as theirs.fred, dux hominumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06310017562311163045noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8331917990627226586.post-15484805051077931982010-04-29T07:07:23.402-07:002010-04-29T07:07:23.402-07:00I wasnt necessarily suggesting that citizenship be...I wasnt necessarily suggesting that citizenship be based on work. I was simply suggesting that i f that is the argument against immigration then surely ridding the country of sloths should be a priority. i do not think so. As for overcrowding... as ruth says, we are a long way from overcrowding because of emigration. Immigration, in fact, aids the country because it brings a young, tax paying workforce that can support the aging population. Obviously there would be a point of overcrowding but in such circumstances there would have to be, i suppose, a points based system based on work, or humanitarian need.<br />I may be being quixotic, but i think we are fast approaching the applicablity of national boundaries and racial classification. Hopefully we may one day have an international shengen treaty.<br />as an afterthought to my comments on the EU. Zizek makes an interesting point in 'violence' that although intra-european boreders are open, the external borders are being tightened. The greater integration of european police and increasingly reationary policies means it is very difficult for non europeans to enter the zone. This seems to me to be an example of selfishly hoarding welath, freedom and rights to the detriment of those who must sacrifice in order to maintain our way of life. Europe owes the developing world its wealth; perhaps we should be a little less hasty in leaving them out in the coldfred, dux hominumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06310017562311163045noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8331917990627226586.post-48761239413360833332010-04-29T06:33:38.586-07:002010-04-29T06:33:38.586-07:00I'm not sure whether this need necessarily be ...I'm not sure whether this need necessarily be an ethical question ie when does the country get overcrowded? It could be reduced to practical indicators of when the infrastructure can no longer support a country's inhabitants (whether these be born here or otherwise).<br />Granted that such practical indicators tend to be measured in somewhat subjective ways ie are manipulated to support the agenda in question, but surely there does have to be a point when the country can no longer support further immigration? This isn't a matter of racism but of common sense. However, as far as I can tell, this saturation point isn't likely to be reached since people also emigrate from the UK so this seems to balance out alongside the strict regulations which now seem to exist, rightly or wrongly (and yes, racism may be endemic in such regulation, but I haven't looked into this enough to comment)<br />Ethically speaking, of course, things are somewhat more complicated, and like Neil I don't know what hte answer is. This is certainly an issue that exercises people, but I find Fred's suggstion that people of working age should only live here when they have earned the right to do so via labour very interesting. I must admit that citizenship rights in my mind do tend to equate with where one is born, or where one has lived for a certain amount of time (or whom one is married to) regardless of the contribution made to the economy. As such, I need to consider this assumption more closely as, when taken to extremes, this admittedly all begins to sound rather nationalistic... <br />RuthRuth Griffinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16653229851182852342noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8331917990627226586.post-67815188327135219232010-04-29T06:03:50.849-07:002010-04-29T06:03:50.849-07:00Agreed, but she will probably determine the outcom...Agreed, but she will probably determine the outcome of the election!<br /><br />But isn't there a serious question to be put here? Is there an ethical limit to immigration? What if there were a 100 million people in the UK? Would that be 'too many'? Clearly there is a point at which a place/city/country becomes 'overcrowded', but what is that point? And what criteria do we have to apply in order to discern it?<br /><br />I am not sure what the answer to these questions is, but I think that they are valid questions. The very issue of 'immigration' is not necessarily 'racist' in my view...<br /><br />Neil TurnbullNeil Turnbullhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07757980706607642699noreply@blogger.com